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Bonecao

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Posts: 9 Member Since: October 27, 2015

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Dec 7 15 9:54 PM

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A possible development for the next LOK game (again, if I miss a piece of the puzzle, please leave a comment). From the moment LOK defiance ended, the normal course of the story would be the events between BO1 and BO2, when both races, vampires and hylden, are preparing for war. Without any intervention, the vampires lose the war, and kain falls asleep for hundreds of years, initiating the events of BO2. This time, though, kain would try to alter history by winning the war, thus eliminating the events of BO2. As to raziel’s role, it would continue. Although he got imprisoned in the sword (purifying it), he made his decision to support vampire’s side. In that sense, the whole story from now on could be rewritten with another role to raziel. For the next game then, raziel would remain tied to the sword, but could get out during sometime to help carry out the vampire’s plan (kain would be able to communicate with him and ask for his assistance at the moments he would have some difficulty with some obstacles). Vorador would be resurrected from death somehow. Also, there could be a female character playing at vampire’s side.
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SacraAudron

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Posts: 11 Member Since:November 8, 2015

#1 [url]

Dec 8 15 12:58 PM

Forget what i said and forget about my ideas, you can guys think another idea, because im not going to work with a traitor, thanks to Jake, who throw 4 year friendship and deleted me on facebook, not even explain why did he do that. I wanted to help and i offered my help for the next game, but this behavior is unacceptable. I automaticly changed some part of the game's story and im so sorry for not helping you guys, i am still a LOK fan, i grown up with this game, but it's not fair to using and betray me.

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Emsi

Posts: 11 Member Since:October 17, 2015

Nature Guardian

#2 [url]

Dec 8 15 5:22 PM

SacraAudron; I feel that I must intercede here. Personal gudges, whether they hold truth or not, have no place here. Your post is irrelevant to the topic and also not helpful to the community as a whole. I ask that you kindly refrain from posting negative comments that are not constructive criticism or meant to improve on the given topic. Please keep all personal matters off the forum. 

Bonecao, I would have loved to see how the events of Defiance spilled over into the pre-BO2 timeline. There are indeed quite a few questions that have been left unanswered and with the shifts in Nosgoth's history it is difficult to say how things might have been impacted. When you say that Kain would alter the events of pre-BO2 to win the war, do you mean Elder Kain would intervene with BO2 Kain's timeline to bring about BO2 Kain's victory? If so, it brings up an interesting question... how would things have gone differently had Kain not lost that battle? Presumably Elder Kain would either stop Sebastian from betraying his younger self or tip him off as to Sebastian's plans. And if Kain won the battle and still had Vorador's army at his beck and call (especially Magnus), would he still feel the need to ressurect Raziel and his brothers? I have to wonder if Elder Kain would take that risk. The smallest deviation from history can have disastrous consequences. I will say this, it would have been awesome to have Raziel as a companion in a future game. Sort of like the Watcher was in Darksiders. 

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Bonecao

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Posts: 9 Member Since:October 27, 2015

#3 [url]

Dec 9 15 12:41 PM

Jesus, you put me in a tight position here, huh, almost like being stuck inside a sword =). I just think that almost any story would be better than just kain watching the collapsed pillars for eternity wondering that raziel gave him hope. Of course the next story would have to fit and probably be able to create a second or third game. But, correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t the elder kain’s objective all along to alter history, believing that raziel holds the key which would unbalance in favor of the vampire race, thus eliminating the hylden and moebius for good and restoring balance for nosgoth without having to sacrifice himself? My initiative is try to build that puzzle with you all so we can find a consensus/possible solution to fit the next game. So I’ll try to answer Emsi’s questions by being more specific about that possible story during pre-BO2. Vorador is revived and begins his rituals turning humans into vampires, raziel would be able to get out of the sword sometimes and would act as elder kain’s right arm. And, yes, the elder kain tries to meet his younger self to tell him about the potential betrayal and, consequently, to try to persuade the potential traitor vampires by offering them more power (trying to repair his previous mistake of being too authoritarian). During these events, the potential traitor vampires followers of sebastian and sebastion himself can’t die, because they are already protected by a hylden spell, since the hylden are persuading them too. They can only be locked some place. So, as story develops, meeting younger kain would fail for some reason, and elder kain and raziel would have to take some measures in order to imprison these vampires someplace. Thus, younger kain would be able to recruit now loyal vampires in order to win the battle. And, now that the elder god sees raziel in action, he finds an opportunity to revive moebius. The elder god would manipulate human hunters to kill raziel in the material realm, so he can have a chance to obtain moebius’ soul from raziel in the ghost realm, thus bringing him back to life and continue his mission of eliminating kain and other vampires (when raziel moves to the ghost spectral, the sword in the real spectral would lose its special feature). Possible outcomes: i) younger kain with his new army wins the battle, because he gets equipped with the special sword at the end, which would definitely kill the hylden and moebius + he restores balance = end of LOK series (would be only 1 game to end the series); ii) his plan fails during the battle, because the traitors are unlocked by the hylden. So, the traitors fight on the hylden side and younger kain loses the battle (the story happening again but in different form). I’d go for number ‘ii’, which would lead to a second game. This one would occur during the period when younger kain is in coma. The challenge would be to secure younger kain’s life (if younger kain dies, then elder kain would die also), since their intervention made on the previous game unleashed real threats to younger kain (the elder god was successful resurrecting moebius, for example). I know this story probably has some flaws. Even if it doesn’t add anything to a possible solution, well, at least I tried. 

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Emsi

Posts: 11 Member Since:October 17, 2015

Nature Guardian

#4 [url]

Dec 10 15 7:29 PM

I really like your ideas, Bonecao. There has always been a sort of disconnected feeling to me between BO2 and the rest of the series... and not just because of the difference in gameplay (which makes sense in a way, considering that it takes place in a completely different timeline than anything preSR2). Your ideas could go aways toward bridging the gap between the games. Indeed, a little more closure to the end of Defiance would be nice, even though it has a bittersweet charm to it that I can live with if it is indeed the last game we get. 
Certainly a big part of Kain's mission is the destruction or at least permanent containment of the Hylden, however, personally I think the first thing that Kain would do after Defiance would be to find a way to put the Elder God down for good. Kain all but forgot about the Hylden until the events at the end of SR2 when they "walked right into their trap.".The EG seems to be the prime mover behind all the struggles in Nosgoth's history. He no doubt used and manipulated the Hylden just as much as he did the Ancients and the Humans. The EG's goal of destoying the Pillars (the corruption of Nosgoth to fuel his own appetite) aligns closely enough with that of the Hylden, that it would make sense for him to use them to achieve said goal. Not to mention that they could possibly eliminate the only real thorns in his side; Kain and Raziel... or at least keep them occupied while he plots in the background. 

But back to your ideas.. On the subject of Moebius' ressurection via Raziel. Do you think that Raziel is still in possession of his soul? I was under the impression that any soul 'eaten' by Raziel or another wraith in the EG's service was immediately processed and returned to the 'Wheel'? This of course doesn't stop the EG from contacting and plotting with a Moebius from an earlier point in time, if he is truly omnipresent, though. Vorador's own return remains a mystery to me, and I can only assume that Elder Kain might have had a hand in that. I also have to wonder if, knowing that young Kain will be victorious in the end, if Elder Kain wouldn't rather focus his attention on the EG, as mentioned. Even if he tipped off young Kain about the war, he still would have to deal with Janos, The Device and the inevitable Hylden invasion. Killing off the Hylden currently in Nosgoth (BO2 era) would only be treating the sympton and not the cause, who I believe to be the EG. It would have been interesting to have a game where Elder Kain moves parallel to young Kain during BO2, but out of sight. It could have created an interesting perspective to have young Kain cutting a bloody path through the traitors and Hylden, while Elder Kain moves behind the scenes ensuring his victory (and perhaps even rescuing him from the aftermath of the battle where young Kain slipped into a coma, and delivering him to Vorador, kind of like you alluded to) and also searching for ways to kill the EG. I think that Elder Kain would take a more covert approach also because a meeting with younger self could have possible paradoxical repurcussions. 

I don't know, it's really difficult to speculate what actions Kain would take after Defiance. But it's always fun to throw around ideas.

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Bonecao

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Posts: 9 Member Since:October 27, 2015

#5 [url]

Dec 10 15 11:48 PM

I agree that the EG would be the main target. My idea, tough, was that, until then, elder kain would have other more urgent concerns, since EG is now hiding underneath the ground. As to the idea of moebius’ soul inside raziel, I don’t think there’s anything in the story that would be an obstacle to that. On the contrary, when raziel ate his brethren’s souls during SR1, he acquired their special skills. Concerning to the more covert approach, I agree that the meeting of both kains ‘could’ create a paradox. Not necessarily would. And I guess this kind of approach (covert) would be more interesting than if they indeed met. As to the rest you mentioned, it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanations.

Last Rewritten by: Bonecao Dec 10 15 11:53 PM. Edited 1 time.

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SacraAudron

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Posts: 11 Member Since:November 8, 2015

#6 [url]

Dec 28 15 7:08 PM

My apology, but really don't understand some people, who accept my help and kindness, and cancels the contact. So im really sorry for the first comment.

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lordviper

Posts: 14 Member Since:September 5, 2015

Balance Guardian

#7 [url]

Jan 2 16 4:48 PM

SacraAudron wrote:
My apology, but really don't understand some people, who accept my help and kindness, and cancels the contact. So im really sorry for the first comment.

SacraAudron, with all due respect, I do not believe you have familiarized yourself with this forum's rules. In addition to being off-topic, you are in violation of rule #7. You were informed by Emsi that your post was in violation of the rules, but she did not warn you. I am not issuing you a warning, either, but I ask you to please refrain from this behaviour or I will act accordingly.

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SacraAudron

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Posts: 11 Member Since:November 8, 2015

#8 [url]

Jan 3 16 3:18 PM

lordviper wrote:

SacraAudron wrote:
My apology, but really don't understand some people, who accept my help and kindness, and cancels the contact. So im really sorry for the first comment.

SacraAudron, with all due respect, I do not believe you have familiarized yourself with this forum's rules. In addition to being off-topic, you are in violation of rule #7. You were informed by Emsi that your post was in violation of the rules, but she did not warn you. I am not issuing you a warning, either, but I ask you to please refrain from this behaviour or I will act accordingly.

Dont worry, i respect you guys and the forum too. I would like to help, if the boss comes back.

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Raina Audron

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Posts: 2 Member Since:October 18, 2015

#9 [url]

Jan 19 16 12:13 PM

SacraAudron wrote:
Forget what i said and forget about my ideas, you can guys think another idea, because im not going to work with a traitor, thanks to Jake, who throw 4 year friendship and deleted me on facebook, not even explain why did he do that. I wanted to help and i offered my help for the next game, but this behavior is unacceptable. I automaticly changed some part of the game's story and im so sorry for not helping you guys, i am still a LOK fan, i grown up with this game, but it's not fair to using and betray me.
This sounds awfully weird, but despite the similar name and use of my former avatar, this is not me. Just thought I´ll let you people know.

Last Rewritten by: Raina Audron Jan 19 16 12:21 PM. Edited 2 times.

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Emsi

Posts: 11 Member Since:October 17, 2015

Nature Guardian

#10 [url]

Jan 21 16 6:25 PM

Raina Audron wrote:

SacraAudron wrote:Forget what i said and forget about my ideas, you can guys think another idea, because im not going to work with a traitor, thanks to Jake, who throw 4 year friendship and deleted me on facebook, not even explain why did he do that. I wanted to help and i offered my help for the next game, but this behavior is unacceptable. I automaticly changed some part of the game's story and im so sorry for not helping you guys, i am still a LOK fan, i grown up with this game, but it's not fair to using and betray me.

This sounds awfully weird, but despite the similar name and use of my former avatar, this is not me. Just thought I´ll let you people know.

It is a bit strange, but didn't think it was you... you go too far back for that XD

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SacraAudron

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Posts: 11 Member Since:November 8, 2015

#11 [url]

Jan 22 16 5:00 PM

Im not copy Raina, this is why i use Sacra, because it means saint. Sorry Raina, if you thought about copying, but im a different person from another country!

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Raina Audron

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Posts: 2 Member Since:October 18, 2015

#12 [url]

Jan 27 16 5:43 PM

It is a bit strange, but didn't think it was you... you go too far back for that XD
Heh, true :D my friend, who let me know, did think though, so I´ve thought I should make it clear.

Im not copy Raina, this is why i use Sacra, because it means saint. Sorry Raina, if you thought about copying, but im a different person from another country!
It´s okay, just it seemed too much of a coincidence :)

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BigAaron

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Posts: 6 Member Since:February 27, 2016

#14 [url]

Feb 27 16 3:57 AM

WARNING!: may countain spoilers for those who havnt played the game and thses are my thogtes on the history and how they can fit in the new LOK game so youv been warned if you played it or havnt and just dont care bout Spoilers then proced if you want..and..Lay victoreus!!
hey guys..idk if you noticed..but you have missed alot of info about the LOK game..but idk if you been keeping up or not even with dead sun cancled..and tbh iv missed alot to the site has changed even the game from prodigal sons to dark resionts.(sorry if i spelled that wrong)..but if you have heard about dead sun being cancled im sure you seen leaked gameplay videos of the game too..its disapointing..dead sun looked great and they just cancled it..but goods news is theres going to be a new LOK game 50/50 chance from what i read on ign..and this came from squire enix or ediosoft (sorry if i spelled that name wrong)..idk which..they switched placeses from publisher to deveolpers with each other alot with these games more then any other ik of..but regradless..im surre we all want a new LOK game so idk how geting to completly change there ods of making it from 50/50 to 100% chance works..but if they get alot more people with skills they need to make it im surre that might make the chances stronger..people like you sacra..if you were going to help jack..(i just want to call him that im stuck using my 360 atm so bare with me on using..and reasion..not important i want to keep that to myself) then im sure you must have some skills that whould have been helpfull no doubt..so why not use them to try and help squire enix with the new LOK game..or whoevers doing it (might need to google it idk the name but i typed in "new legacy of kain game 2016" its not coming out in 2016 i just did that so i might find some news on a new LOK game..not old news im already familer with)..case im sure they need all the help they can get..maybe you guys to to better the ods of its confermation that there will be a new one..and lets face it defiance didnt make that much since in the end..while the events were made by kain and razile do (which brings up irony about history reapting itself)..some stuff in soul reaver do not..and blood omen one..idk how blood omen 1 went never got to play it but i read about it kain got the soul reaver but idk were..he cased the destruction of the piller (the only thing holding the hylden) by refusing to kill himself..after words some time later he revives raizel and his brothers who were sarifan and were killed when he got there (which was raizel himself) and brainwashed by kain to forget who they were as humans (along with there murder) and soul reaver 1 begins but fastfowred to stuff we dont know..like what happend to raizels clan..on wikia kain did not deniy nor did he not conferm he killed raizels clan..all he saied was "what i have made i can also destroy"..that being saied he also knew raizel whould return..when and somthing makes me wonder did kain meet his futer (typeo sorry) self? (to know the futcher raizel)..and rahab (i knew you whould come kain saied you whould come)..and raizel knew the blade was possed (in 2 he finaly figerd out he was possesing the blade)..but in 1 no hylden were seen just a few indangerd humans and more vampires..and in soul reaver 2 kain saved raizel from the blade knowing what whould happen if he did..but..in defiance in the end kain still had the soul reaver..so lol damn i hate time travel like that..still we need to know how this happend with the old kain in a timeline between blood omen 1 and soul reaver 1..after the events of defiance..new gameplay better grapics new combat and a open world as well a free roam like what dead sun had all that but better..and chooses were your actions matter and will effect and shape the history of nosgoth..but if all my opinons sounded like they were dead on..and might be very possable..theres one other thing that might make it be 100%..if all this was true the events and stuff more then likely kain did this alot more having made dif chooses to try and save raizel but all ended up fail with the same result..and choose should be a big factor in the new LOK game storyline..but we play as old kain and why..case maybe he knows his other copys did the same thing and is trying to find a way to correct it to save raizel..but will it be it led to the same faith or will it be a bit sucsesfull this time..can he correct his mistakes the other copys of himself failed to do..there is no right or wrong this time..you are a new but old kain you have your own quest to change the history to make a dif timeline were your closest friend is still alive..or relive the same tragic evens the old copys of yourself feard whould happen....main missions are side missions they are one and the same now: armed with a item and abilty "the timestreaming device" now making a return from blood omen 1 you change what you are and how destny is passed into history..or will they be reversed?..for the 1st time ever learn how kain made vampires from the corpses raizel and his brothers..and use this power to create new flegling vampires that will obay kain:create and command your vampire army each possesing a copy of your dark gift..command them to make clans that will fight for kain with them making the vampires for that clan that you command with there leader and after a blood leting fight battle or war gain eveolution points for both you and your minnions..and will you destory the clan?: conferme or reject the idea raizel thougt was fact kill your own kin on by yourself or command anther clan to take control and kill them for you and even command there underling to kill them or anther clan leader for promtion or death good and evil no longer have meaning the rewards..power and transformation..make a vampire clan leader your rival hunt and destroy them but be wary less they come back..and make rivels and friends with other players and there minions clans in a co op vs mode team up to take down a rival online and eather shaire the rewards or betray and chalinge your friend..destiny is a game is it not?..and change history with them or aganst them..eather way its not just for you..its for them aswell.."the never ending cycel of death and rebirth" the will of faith is back and has now set his sights on kain..but how and why?:kill the elder god once and for all..or join him..life after death for the 1st time kain can relive the world his friend raizel gone trough...but will this be a curse or belsing to you..now drink blood and souls of enemys humans,vampires,demons ,and hylden alike feed there souls to the while of faith and be reward with warth abiltys that will help you in more then just combat restore your vampire beast look with warth points in the materal world..and change from materal to spirit world and back again..cheat life and death...evolution points change kains image as a vampire with evolution points to strike even more fear into nosgoth..and also earn blood points by drinking blood from your enemys to buy and upgrade skills abiltys and dark gifts...
know the futcher see its past..relive it change it..Legacy of kain (unknown name)..now you decide the faith of everything even yourself...Kain: you have a chose!!

Last Rewritten by: BigAaron Feb 27 16 4:03 AM. Edited 1 time.

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Xanatos

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Posts: 5 Member Since:February 27, 2016

#15 [url]

Feb 27 16 8:26 PM

Emsi wrote:
Vorador's own return remains a mystery to me, and I can only assume that Elder Kain might have had a hand in that.

I think that Elder Kain would take a more covert approach also because a meeting with younger self could have possible paradoxical repurcussions. 






 

Paradoxes cannot occur without Reaver convergence. Much as when Raziel met and killed his Sarafan self ("but he killed Sarafan Raz with the Reaver, that's a convergence!" - That was the Blood Reaver. Tripped me up too for a bit. It gets confusing.), Elder Kain meeting his younger self would result in a mere time loop - unless they fought each other while both armed with the Soul Reaver.

As for Moebius, his soul explicitly went to the Elder God at Defiance's end. And contrary to vampires whose powers lie in their evolving supernatural souls, Moebius' magic is tied up in his role as Guardian. His power does not lie with his soul but with his token, the magical hourglass. When he dies for good, that magic returns to the Pillar of Time. Raziel couldn't assimilate it even if he had eaten Moebius' soul.

And what is it with the constant ideas of bringing Raziel back. Raziel is gone. Fixation on him just gets us things like that lame hybrid protagonist they invented for Dead Sun just to blatantly mimic Raziel. XP

Last Rewritten by: Xanatos Feb 27 16 8:45 PM. Edited 3 times.

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BigAaron

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Posts: 6 Member Since:February 27, 2016

#16 [url]

Feb 27 16 10:16 PM

Xanatos wrote:

Emsi wrote:
Vorador's own return remains a mystery to me, and I can only assume that Elder Kain might have had a hand in that.

I think that Elder Kain would take a more covert approach also because a meeting with younger self could have possible paradoxical repurcussions. 






 

Paradoxes cannot occur without Reaver convergence. Much as when Raziel met and killed his Sarafan self ("but he killed Sarafan Raz with the Reaver, that's a convergence!" - That was the Blood Reaver. Tripped me up too for a bit. It gets confusing.), Elder Kain meeting his younger self would result in a mere time loop - unless they fought each other while both armed with the Soul Reaver.

As for Moebius, his soul explicitly went to the Elder God at Defiance's end. And contrary to vampires whose powers lie in their evolving supernatural souls, Moebius' magic is tied up in his role as Guardian. His power does not lie with his soul but with his token, the magical hourglass. When he dies for good, that magic returns to the Pillar of Time. Raziel couldn't assimilate it even if he had eaten Moebius' soul.

And what is it with the constant ideas of bringing Raziel back. Raziel is gone. Fixation on him just gets us things like that lame hybrid protagonist they invented for Dead Sun just to blatantly mimic Raziel. XP

true..but we cant say for certion wather mobius is truly dead or not and raziels soul not only became part of the soul reaver it became apart of kain..even in blood omen 1 it looked like mobius was aware that kain whould kill had this happend before,and the elder god does seem like he has the power over life and death as mobius saied (my master will breath life into me once more)..but idk if the elder god is capable of dieing..if he truly was killed theres a more important question then (if he knew all this why did he deem mobius useless instead of reviving him and was the elder god there to see and die for there change of nosgoth?),how did the elder god come to be?
while there are severel possabiltys that chould have happend from defiance to the next LOK game (should it pick off from there), alot of things mostly concern kain now you if kain meets his past self a loop will happen..like everything being (brought back to life not knowing what had happen even mobies and the elder god) and happing in a dif way with the same possable result, not even the time streamer whould know.
kain kills his past self being the only copy left,thats the other possabilty how he knew about all this in the start of soul reaver..but he chould have not went trough sending raziel into the abis..but if so why..my opinion vampires cant change the out come of there death and there bound to wonder the the spirit world not givin life in the real world,but raziel some has the faith to change his hes not bound by life or death..i belive thats what they ment by "he has free will"..while the past kain has the option of killing his other self doing so in my opinion whould case kain to take in the memories of the other but broken images..these whould  be added ontop of the new ones from the others casing them to be replaced..even if the new kain thats in the past kills his old self doing so will bring back things of the past back to life..and everything will happen eather with a dif or same result..but they need some ideas for the new LOK game..even if its not dead sun they will need to make the new game better and more options of chose for nosgoth and its inhabatens..and if defiance hadnt ended that way kain could have taken great pride in placing raziels soul in the reaver the 1st time in there 1st fight of defiance near the end of it..even in soul reaver 1 and 2..but now that the new kain has defeted the elder god (if he has).and has raziels soul in the reaver..what will he do now? theres still the hylden to worry about and having chooses is everthing..but ya.
we need a new LOK game and we gota start somewere..and your still going to play as kain..should the one from defiance die youl end up choosing the time line for a dif version..(blood omen soul reaver soul reaver 2 and defiance) but with our curent gen grapics and a high def apperance over all for the sake of the time we live in now lol..but for real..and no you wont be geting chooses in the form of cards or dialog there based on your action..like if you kill someone important in the events to come wather it be in the futecher or past..killing some less important or some who was going to die anyway but did before there real case can create an alt time line when you time travel..these 'time parhaodoxis' might chould be somthing new you can use you name that new time line and when your kain dies or you just want to switch to anther one..(realy that sounds lot better then using the timestreaming device as well as using the spirit and real world system for kain lot less effort and time dont you think? let me know but if its need for the impossable forgive me )..even make your own blood omen 2 time line and even 3..but these will be linked to eachother 1 game in each now like..blood omen 1 soulreaver 1 and defiance..and defiance with its on time line..all of these can be replayed changed and reapted in the same way like change blood omens timeline finish it and make a blood omen 2 time.but you start off were defiance ended or change to a dif using the time device or main menu..idk..i feel like this idea has a chance for the new LOK game but idk..is it imposable to add these to the new LOK game let me ok?
 

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Xanatos

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Posts: 5 Member Since:February 27, 2016

#17 [url]

Feb 27 16 11:07 PM

BigAaron wrote:

Xanatos wrote:

Emsi wrote:
Vorador's own return remains a mystery to me, and I can only assume that Elder Kain might have had a hand in that.

I think that Elder Kain would take a more covert approach also because a meeting with younger self could have possible paradoxical repurcussions. 










 

Paradoxes cannot occur without Reaver convergence. Much as when Raziel met and killed his Sarafan self ("but he killed Sarafan Raz with the Reaver, that's a convergence!" - That was the Blood Reaver. Tripped me up too for a bit. It gets confusing.), Elder Kain meeting his younger self would result in a mere time loop - unless they fought each other while both armed with the Soul Reaver.

As for Moebius, his soul explicitly went to the Elder God at Defiance's end. And contrary to vampires whose powers lie in their evolving supernatural souls, Moebius' magic is tied up in his role as Guardian. His power does not lie with his soul but with his token, the magical hourglass. When he dies for good, that magic returns to the Pillar of Time. Raziel couldn't assimilate it even if he had eaten Moebius' soul.

And what is it with the constant ideas of bringing Raziel back. Raziel is gone. Fixation on him just gets us things like that lame hybrid protagonist they invented for Dead Sun just to blatantly mimic Raziel. XP

true..but we cant say for certion wather mobius is truly dead or not and raziels soul not only became part of the soul reaver it became apart of kain..even in blood omen 1 it looked like mobius was aware that kain whould kill had this happend before,and the elder god does seem like he has the power over life and death as mobius saied (my master will breath life into me once more)..but idk if the elder god is capable of dieing..if he truly was killed theres a more important question then (if he knew all this why did he deem mobius useless instead of reviving him and was the elder god there to see and die for there change of nosgoth?),how did the elder god come to be?
while there are severel possabiltys that chould have happend from defiance to the next LOK game (should it pick off from there), alot of things mostly concern kain now you if kain meets his past self a loop will happen..like everything being (brought back to life not knowing what had happen even mobies and the elder god) and happing in a dif way with the same possable result, not even the time streamer whould know.
kain kills his past self being the only copy left,thats the other possabilty how he knew about all this in the start of soul reaver..but he chould have not went trough sending raziel into the abis..but if so why..my opinion vampires cant change the out come of there death and there bound to wonder the the spirit world not givin life in the real world,but raziel some has the faith to change his hes not bound by life or death..i belive thats what they ment by "he has free will"..while the past kain has the option of killing his other self doing so in my opinion whould case kain to take in the memories of the other but broken images..these whould  be added ontop of the new ones from the others casing them to be replaced..even if the new kain thats in the past kills his old self doing so will bring back things of the past back to life..and everything will happen eather with a dif or same result..but they need some ideas for the new LOK game..even if its not dead sun they will need to make the new game better and more options of chose for nosgoth and its inhabatens..and if defiance hadnt ended that way kain could have taken great pride in placing raziels soul in the reaver the 1st time in there 1st fight of defiance near the end of it..even in soul reaver 1 and 2..but now that the new kain has defeted the elder god (if he has).and has raziels soul in the reaver..what will he do now? theres still the hylden to worry about and having chooses is everthing..but ya.
we need a new LOK game and we gota start somewere..and your still going to play as kain..should the one from defiance die youl end up choosing the time line for a dif version..(blood omen soul reaver soul reaver 2 and defiance) but with our curent gen grapics and a high def apperance over all for the sake of the time we live in now lol..but for real..and no you wont be geting chooses in the form of cards or dialog there based on your action..like if you kill someone important in the events to come wather it be in the futecher or past..killing some less important or some who was going to die anyway but did before there real case can create an alt time line when you time travel..these 'time parhaodoxis' might chould be somthing new you can use you name that new time line and when your kain dies or you just want to switch to anther one..(realy that sounds lot better then using the timestreaming device as well as using the spirit and real world system for kain lot less effort and time dont you think? let me know but if its need for the impossable forgive me )..even make your own blood omen 2 time line and even 3..but these will be linked to eachother 1 game in each now like..blood omen 1 soulreaver 1 and defiance..and defiance with its on time line..all of these can be replayed changed and reapted in the same way like change blood omens timeline finish it and make a blood omen 2 time.but you start off were defiance ended or change to a dif using the time device or main menu..idk..i feel like this idea has a chance for the new LOK game but idk..is it imposable to add these to the new LOK game let me ok?
 

A) We can say, for certain, that Moebius is truly dead. He was killed in materal form. He was killed in spectral form. He was not revived by his master. His soul was devoured by Raziel who acts as a filter to the Elder God. All of this occurred on-screen and is undeniable. He is, as a fact, truly dead.

B) Raziel's soul being a part of Kain is incorrect. Raziel's soul is inside the Reaver. The only souls dispersed into Kain were the previous Balance Guardians.

C) There is no explicit evidence that the Elder God can see time's flow. As such, I believe that any such time-spying he did was by virtue of Moebius' Guardian powers. Further, Raziel's free will was clouding Moebius' ability to see what would happen. Even Kain's movements became clouded due to Raziel's interacting with him so much. (This is also why Moebius was shocked to see Kain alive at the end of Defiance. Because it was Raziel fighting him, that section of the timestream is fogged up so he never saw Kain surviving the duel. If Raziel had used the wraith blade, he indeed would have killed Kain - one cannot live, immortal or otherwise, without a soul. This is what Moebius intended. But free will went and screwed that up when Raziel just tore Kain's heart out instead.)


D) What is meant by "he has free will" is exactly that: He has free will. Everyone in Nosgoth is bound to a predestined path - except Raziel, and he can derail any such path through his interactions with others.

As for why he has free will: Reaver convergence. When Kain struck Raziel with the Soul Reaver, the Reaver attempted to consume Raziel - essentially, Raziel's soul sought to consume itself. This, for obvious reasons, caused the blade to shatter. The wraith blade - Raziel's soul - then became infused upon Raziel's arm. Raziel, still animated by his soul, is now carrying a duplicate of his soul around on his arm. He is, due to Kain's actions, a perpetual, walking, living Reaver convergence.

And as a continuous Reaver convergence, his every second of life now holds the potential to disrupt the otherwise predestined course of time. The moment the wraith blade latched onto him is when he broke free of the Wheel of Fate. He had no free will prior to that first battle with Kain. In the Soul Reaver comic (which takes place before that battle), even his execution is a predestined event - because he hadn't gained free will yet.

E) Format. Your. Posts. There is no platform - NONE, in this entire world - that forbids the formation of paragraphs, use of line breaks, and basic capitalization. It'd be one thing if the post was just tedious to read but on top of that, it seems like English isn't your native tongue and these two things together just don't work. You need. To make. Your posts. Readable. At the very least, capitalize the start of sentences and space out paragraphs. I can make due with that.

Last Rewritten by: Xanatos Feb 27 16 11:17 PM. Edited 2 times.

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SacraAudron

Fledgling

Posts: 11 Member Since:November 8, 2015

#18 [url]

Feb 28 16 10:37 AM

Dont worry Raina, im not mad at al. :) Hey, your name inspireted me to write a new LOK game's story and im thinking another one, the last is my own creation. One day i'll be a good screenwriten, even if everyone laughs at me, i dont care! :D Do you still talk with Jake?

Last Rewritten by: SacraAudron Feb 28 16 10:39 AM. Edited 1 time.

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BigAaron

Fledgling

Posts: 6 Member Since:February 27, 2016

#19 [url]

Feb 28 16 11:48 PM

SacraAudron wrote:
Dont worry Raina, im not mad at al. :) Hey, your name inspireted me to write a new LOK game's story and im thinking another one, the last is my own creation. One day i'll be a good screenwriten, even if everyone laughs at me, i dont care! :D Do you still talk with Jake?

No.
I havnt talked to him in awhile and tbh the last time i did was awhile back when prodigal sons was 1st out.

I mostly just asked about prodigal son's is all,but its nice to see your felling better now

Im going to miss LOK so much,lol tbh i was hoping to play as vampire raziel in soul reaver but it was still good
P.S idk why it didnt your message in a grey or white box above a black one sacar,usealy thats how you sperat your message from anthers when qoting to avode confusion
 

 

Last Rewritten by: BigAaron Feb 28 16 11:53 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Emsi

Posts: 11 Member Since:October 17, 2015

Nature Guardian

#20 [url]

Feb 29 16 12:11 PM

Xanatos wrote:

BigAaron wrote:

Xanatos wrote:

Emsi wrote:
Vorador's own return remains a mystery to me, and I can only assume that Elder Kain might have had a hand in that.

I think that Elder Kain would take a more covert approach also because a meeting with younger self could have possible paradoxical repurcussions. 











 

Paradoxes cannot occur without Reaver convergence. Much as when Raziel met and killed his Sarafan self ("but he killed Sarafan Raz with the Reaver, that's a convergence!" - That was the Blood Reaver. Tripped me up too for a bit. It gets confusing.), Elder Kain meeting his younger self would result in a mere time loop - unless they fought each other while both armed with the Soul Reaver.

As for Moebius, his soul explicitly went to the Elder God at Defiance's end. And contrary to vampires whose powers lie in their evolving supernatural souls, Moebius' magic is tied up in his role as Guardian. His power does not lie with his soul but with his token, the magical hourglass. When he dies for good, that magic returns to the Pillar of Time. Raziel couldn't assimilate it even if he had eaten Moebius' soul.

And what is it with the constant ideas of bringing Raziel back. Raziel is gone. Fixation on him just gets us things like that lame hybrid protagonist they invented for Dead Sun just to blatantly mimic Raziel. XP

true..but we cant say for certion wather mobius is truly dead or not and raziels soul not only became part of the soul reaver it became apart of kain..even in blood omen 1 it looked like mobius was aware that kain whould kill had this happend before,and the elder god does seem like he has the power over life and death as mobius saied (my master will breath life into me once more)..but idk if the elder god is capable of dieing..if he truly was killed theres a more important question then (if he knew all this why did he deem mobius useless instead of reviving him and was the elder god there to see and die for there change of nosgoth?),how did the elder god come to be?
while there are severel possabiltys that chould have happend from defiance to the next LOK game (should it pick off from there), alot of things mostly concern kain now you if kain meets his past self a loop will happen..like everything being (brought back to life not knowing what had happen even mobies and the elder god) and happing in a dif way with the same possable result, not even the time streamer whould know.
kain kills his past self being the only copy left,thats the other possabilty how he knew about all this in the start of soul reaver..but he chould have not went trough sending raziel into the abis..but if so why..my opinion vampires cant change the out come of there death and there bound to wonder the the spirit world not givin life in the real world,but raziel some has the faith to change his hes not bound by life or death..i belive thats what they ment by "he has free will"..while the past kain has the option of killing his other self doing so in my opinion whould case kain to take in the memories of the other but broken images..these whould  be added ontop of the new ones from the others casing them to be replaced..even if the new kain thats in the past kills his old self doing so will bring back things of the past back to life..and everything will happen eather with a dif or same result..but they need some ideas for the new LOK game..even if its not dead sun they will need to make the new game better and more options of chose for nosgoth and its inhabatens..and if defiance hadnt ended that way kain could have taken great pride in placing raziels soul in the reaver the 1st time in there 1st fight of defiance near the end of it..even in soul reaver 1 and 2..but now that the new kain has defeted the elder god (if he has).and has raziels soul in the reaver..what will he do now? theres still the hylden to worry about and having chooses is everthing..but ya.
we need a new LOK game and we gota start somewere..and your still going to play as kain..should the one from defiance die youl end up choosing the time line for a dif version..(blood omen soul reaver soul reaver 2 and defiance) but with our curent gen grapics and a high def apperance over all for the sake of the time we live in now lol..but for real..and no you wont be geting chooses in the form of cards or dialog there based on your action..like if you kill someone important in the events to come wather it be in the futecher or past..killing some less important or some who was going to die anyway but did before there real case can create an alt time line when you time travel..these 'time parhaodoxis' might chould be somthing new you can use you name that new time line and when your kain dies or you just want to switch to anther one..(realy that sounds lot better then using the timestreaming device as well as using the spirit and real world system for kain lot less effort and time dont you think? let me know but if its need for the impossable forgive me )..even make your own blood omen 2 time line and even 3..but these will be linked to eachother 1 game in each now like..blood omen 1 soulreaver 1 and defiance..and defiance with its on time line..all of these can be replayed changed and reapted in the same way like change blood omens timeline finish it and make a blood omen 2 time.but you start off were defiance ended or change to a dif using the time device or main menu..idk..i feel like this idea has a chance for the new LOK game but idk..is it imposable to add these to the new LOK game let me ok?
 

A) We can say, for certain, that Moebius is truly dead. He was killed in materal form. He was killed in spectral form. He was not revived by his master. His soul was devoured by Raziel who acts as a filter to the Elder God. All of this occurred on-screen and is undeniable. He is, as a fact, truly dead.

B) Raziel's soul being a part of Kain is incorrect. Raziel's soul is inside the Reaver. The only souls dispersed into Kain were the previous Balance Guardians.

C) There is no explicit evidence that the Elder God can see time's flow. As such, I believe that any such time-spying he did was by virtue of Moebius' Guardian powers. Further, Raziel's free will was clouding Moebius' ability to see what would happen. Even Kain's movements became clouded due to Raziel's interacting with him so much. (This is also why Moebius was shocked to see Kain alive at the end of Defiance. Because it was Raziel fighting him, that section of the timestream is fogged up so he never saw Kain surviving the duel. If Raziel had used the wraith blade, he indeed would have killed Kain - one cannot live, immortal or otherwise, without a soul. This is what Moebius intended. But free will went and screwed that up when Raziel just tore Kain's heart out instead.)


D) What is meant by "he has free will" is exactly that: He has free will. Everyone in Nosgoth is bound to a predestined path - except Raziel, and he can derail any such path through his interactions with others.

As for why he has free will: Reaver convergence. When Kain struck Raziel with the Soul Reaver, the Reaver attempted to consume Raziel - essentially, Raziel's soul sought to consume itself. This, for obvious reasons, caused the blade to shatter. The wraith blade - Raziel's soul - then became infused upon Raziel's arm. Raziel, still animated by his soul, is now carrying a duplicate of his soul around on his arm. He is, due to Kain's actions, a perpetual, walking, living Reaver convergence.

And as a continuous Reaver convergence, his every second of life now holds the potential to disrupt the otherwise predestined course of time. The moment the wraith blade latched onto him is when he broke free of the Wheel of Fate. He had no free will prior to that first battle with Kain. In the Soul Reaver comic (which takes place before that battle), even his execution is a predestined event - because he hadn't gained free will yet.

E) Format. Your. Posts. There is no platform - NONE, in this entire world - that forbids the formation of paragraphs, use of line breaks, and basic capitalization. It'd be one thing if the post was just tedious to read but on top of that, it seems like English isn't your native tongue and these two things together just don't work. You need. To make. Your posts. Readable. At the very least, capitalize the start of sentences and space out paragraphs. I can make due with that.

Continuing in your format seems like the best idea:

A) I agree that Moebius is 100% dead. Short of reincarnating, there's no way he's coming back. 

B) Again, correct. 

C) This one's a little more difficult. It is hinted that the EG has some idea of events in any given time, although as you suggested this can just be a result of his affiliation with Moebius. Kain's return from his duel with Raziel was definitely unforseen as far as Moebius and the EG are concerned. Which lends a lot of credibilty to your theory that the EG is not as omniscient as he would have everyone believe. This is very likely seeing as he's lied about pretty much everything else as well; "...origin of Life", etc. 

D) Agreed again. Seeing Raziel as a walking paradox is probably the best way of explaining why he has free will. I really don't have much more to add other than to say that I support your theories. 

E) Yes. Please. English isn't my native tongue either, but I would appreciate it if everyone could make the effort to put their posts in a format that can be read and understood with relative ease. Proper punctuation would be appreciated. 

Another thing regarding this statement: "kain kills his past self being the only copy left,thats the other possabilty how he knew about all this in the start of soul reaver.." I don't believe this to be a viable option. Killing your past self (disregarding the inherent paradox) would result in your own death. 

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